Tobruk could be a good map

[Sledge]

I'd like to see the Red helo removed from Tobruk. It seems impossible for Blue to win this map. Alternatively, maybe the flag zone could be made smaller. I'd much rather play this map with red owning every flag except the main and defend to the end. The way it is now, Red captures the main and the game is over in minutes. This map and Inshalla Valley end too quickly while others drag on for the full hour.

[Specialist]

Sledge, in regards to your question on the red helo, I tend to agree on how it could be an issue for blue.. I dont think that the flag capture radius is really a problem, as with any other map.. strategy wins the game. Coalition gets enough armor and the only issue I can see with this map is axis's transport helo.

I can discuss the red helo issue with the other admins and see what their take is on it.

[Sledge]

Thanks. I don't know if you have stats on wins/loss but I'm willing to bet Red wins 90% on that map.

[Nightster]

I agree that Red always wins, I think its one of my least favorite maps on the server always a camp fest.

Perhaps the back flag could be made into a Blue main...or maybe the Red tanks could have a longer respawn time ?

or

I bet mixing up the vehicles could make it new and interesting. The flags are close enough that it could almost me a fun infantry map even, with enough hills to hide from sniper cover yet still play as almost any class. But of course vehicles make it fun. So maybe just take out some of the heavy vehicles. I think it would slow it down and who knows it could be really fun that way.

[Lev_Nougol]

Why not give Red the Medevac helo like blue, but disable both so they can heal and reload, but not fly?
Seems like a fair balance that way.

The only other issue I have, as with nearly every map, is the BMP and Bradley "Sniping" everything.
I think i can solve that though.


-Lev

[Swanny-CG]

Tobruk is like Oil Fields or Battle of the Bulge except in terrain layout; Tobruk has fewer places to hide or sneak past to another base.

That being said, there MUST be a commitment on blue's part to defend the base with the most strategic value, namely the back one. If they do not defend it, they will most likely lose.

Mostly, blue, for whatever reason, does not choose to defend this base.

If the howitzer sits back, it can handle a small transport helo's worth of troops, on foot, trying to take the back flag. At the very least, a person defending can call for help before red has a chance to establish a strong foothold.

To that end, we made the change from red having a spawn helo to a transport helo.

The bigger issue, for me, is skilled players generally like to play red more. I understand this, and many times I feel the same way, for reasons I will not going into for now. I have made it my priority to go to the team that needs the most help. I do not always volunteer myself immediately, as I feel the burden should be spread out, but I will do it if needed. IMO it is the responsibility of every player in this community to support fair, balanced and even matches. If that means you get on the losing side form time to time, but the match is overall more competetive, then you do it. If we want to establish a policy that if teams are unbalanced (not in number necessarily but skill) that the admins ask for volunteers and then start forcing the issue (by, I suppose, kicking the highest scorers on the team with the advantage?) I think we're going to be unhappier overall as a community.

Before you call this an extremist position, think of what happens when blue loses the US "main" on BoB. If someone sneaks past it can sometimes be retaken, but blue has a vested interest in keep control of that base. If they do not, it is usually the beginning of a slippery slope. These maps must be fought strategically. I do not support the idea of making a sandbox where it's dumbed down too much. Communicate more and better, and spread the talent around to keep things even.

My 2 cents.

[Babies_Happen]

People have to think about why the original map was designed. 1942 Tobruk was designed based on the evacuation of allied troops trapped by the germans on one side, the sea on the other. I dont know if players here care about the bigger picture of maps, or if they just care about them being balanced so everyone is happy. Lately Ive been playing blue more often on this map and it really isnt that hard for blue to win, or at least make it a good game. 3 or 4 players can defend the blue 'main' easily the whole game. I dont know how the ticket bleed is set up, but it does seem like blue has to hold all bases for red to bleed, that should be tweaked i think.

And the helo...I dont really have an issue with the red helo, perhaps its spawn time could be longer though. Back in the day when red had a spawn helo this map was crap, and switching helos was the solution and has made the map more balanced. Give blue a harrier with some cluster bombs, should even it out nicely. jk. Blue does win this map from time to time, but it takes a little bit of strategy.

[Swanny-CG]

Babies,

Exactly.

Defending doesn't give you as many points but it *can* win the day. I guess it all depends on why a person plays.

The bleed is set to a 50/50 scenario, as a mod to the original. Here's the deal - unless we create a new map and distribute it to everyone, we do our mods server side. That means we can adjust stuff like how a bleed occurs but the clients read their local files and display the flashing red bleed on the ticket counter as designed in the original map. Look at the numbers, it may be flashing but if you own 50% of the bases you're not actually losing any tickets.

Swanny

[Lev_Nougol]

Ah, I was unaware of the 50/50 shift.
That's some handy info.
Thanks, Swanny.


~Lev

[Rally Monkey]

I wish the blue was made an uncap period and then bleeding occurs for a majority of the rest of the flags being held by your team. I know the history of Tobruk (the real one) and could care less about it. I am only suggesting improvements to game play. Of course, if this change was implemented, the map would have to be tracked for awhile to see if one side or another need more powerful weapons/vehicles.

[Lev_Nougol]

I'm inclined to agree with the prospect of Blue uncap, actually.
I don't mind losing, but I don't like when a potentially good map is over in 5 minutes because there are no spawn locations.
Hell, give blue an empty carrier in the water if you like.

I understand how each of these types of maps require a decent strategy, but I'll compare and contrast '42 Tobruk Vs DC.

In '42, Red had a load of superior tanks and equipment in a single main.
Blue, on the other hand, had less efficient gear spread out across the map.
The required tactic is the same, hold the rear main.
This required battling forward, as well as keeping an eye on the beach for an incoming sneak around.

All of this is mostly the same for DC Tobruk, however, there are some key differences that make this far more a one-sided battle.

Firstly, transport helos, like all helos, can fly extremely high, so with a clever pilot, there is no way to alert others to its presence, nor shoot it down.
We could add an SA-3 and/or Vulcan and make this map Sucksville.
We could remove the helos altogether.
We could disable them, but allow them to work as healing and reloading stations (my personal favorite).
Or, we could do nothing.

Secondly, the Red Howi, BMP, BRDM, are all amphibious.
This means not only having to watch the beach, but the water, as well as the other side, for those that would sneak way behind the main and close in from various flanks.
Needless to say, this further thins out the defensive lines.
Not to mention that exactly 0 Blue vehicles have amphibious qualities.

Third, is the speed of the DC vehicles, allowing Red to move rather quickly to any attempts at capturing a spawn point once all bases are taken.
Not to mention the speed in which Red reinforcements can arrive to help spawn camp said location.

These are, believe it or not, extreme disadvantages for Blue.

Yes, if Blue plays wisely, they *might* win, just as with the '42 variant.
However, in the DC version, the likelihood of such a success is drastically less.

This could be solved by removing/disabling the helos, removing/replacing the amphibious vehicles, OR, giving Blue a permanent spawn, whether it be the rear base, or an empty carrier.

I have a couple of other ideas I have for spicing this map up, but those fall second to this initial issue.

There are other maps that play with a cappable main, but they are usually larger, with a greater degree of success for the defending team.
Maybe those maps don't require the same degree of changes, but a map as linear as Tobruk may.
Just my 2 cents. :p


~Lev

[rambo]

swanny you can solve the good players going red all the time by having auto balance always on so guys can't switch teams. that would make every map better. whatever team you get you get.

i like 80% of these maps are favored for red to win. wake, tobruk, weapons bunker, desert sheild, .ect....but thats the game. 0nly a skilled blue team with unselfish players can win on some of these maps.

if you made blues main an uncap i think you would make this map to hard for red. blue can get armour from there main to the other flags quicker and can go full force.

how about making it like the bulge where as long as blue holds a flag the tickets don't run. or how about putting more tank opsticles on the beach entrances and back to blues main so if red wants to send tanks there they have to go from the other flags or the montains where you can see them coming.

but your right swanny. blue needs to check there egos at the door about there scores and stay home. but if too many stay home, red takes all the flags easy and surrounds the main and its only a matter of time before its over.

[Swanny-CG]

swanny you can solve the good players going red all the time by having auto balance always on so guys can't switch teams.

They switch at the beginning of the round, as they come into the map.

how about making it like the bulge where as long as blue holds a flag the tickets don't run.

Then people will complain because the rounds are too long.

I figured out a long time ago that we're never going to make *everyone* happy. Some people like one way, others like it exactly the opposite. We try and take a look at every map, every situation, and decide what seems to make for the best gameplay. We always have the option to give both teams the exact same kits, exact same equipment, and maybe even craft maps that are exactly symmetrical - does that sound like anything you want to play? Not to me -

I'm sure there are times we miss the boat but we try and take others' input into consideration, ask for the opinions of our peers and even hold at bay the way *we* like to do things.

Perhaps someday we'll take a look at swapping some of these maps around, and maybe red will have to fight to keep that back base while blue comes out of an armored and protected main, or red will have to make their last stand at the windmill on BoB. Not today, but you never know.

[Lev_Nougol]

If auto balance is left on, everyone can't jump on the same team.
Where they start is where they stay, save for when people are disconnected/booted, creating a gap, then the gap is instantly filled when a person of the opposing team dies.
Far less team switches, and the only stack would be the extra guy, if there's an extra.

At game start, when people log in, the team will fill up as follows:

0 - 0
1 - 0
1 - 1
2 - 1
2- 2

And so on.
This way it will never end up 10 - 6, like it so often does, and the quicker PC's can't stack and swipe every flag before others log in.


~Lev

[Swanny-CG]

Autobalance is not simply an "on" or "off" setting. It is variable, and can be adjusted to the server admin's liking. The minimum is 2, to prevent people from being switched every time they are killed. Even when configured with what might be considered a good setting, the server does not snap to when the minimal difference is detected and make the *necessary* adjustments. We have it set at 3, which is enough to prevent gross imbalance without having autobalance kicking on and off every 30 seconds. It's really very irritating when set with too low of a threshold.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

[Lev_Nougol]

Hmm, fair enough.


~Lev

[Gen.Nimitz]

Tobruk is a great armor map but that's need team work for the Coalition, to not lose the main base. But, it's the same story for Battlef of the bulge and when you have some playe who understand teamwork, battle of the bulge is cool to play. Anyway, Toburk is cool if you use the MRLS on good hands, Thats makes the difference when you have a good artillerist on that. It's probably one of the most powerful weapons of the game and which can have an impact considerably between the victory or the defeat.

[nomuck]

personaly i think the Bruk is a great map.......
the prob. i think is on most maps ....
the blue players want to be paratroopers and not defend the control points..
spawning somwhere far away ... then waiting for a ride.... dosen't keep flags....
diging in and working as a team keeps flags....
but what do i know.... my paintbrush is a sniperGun and people hate snipers ;)

[Property23]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but what about having a parachuting spawn point. The blue would instantly spawn in the air with parachute open. This way if red does have all the flags, it would force red to have to hold them down. Blue would never be "out of the game" and it would force blue to have to fight for a flag.

[Swanny-CG]

That's a great idea, Prop. I won't have a chance to bang on it until next week but I think I found the relevant info.

[nomuck]

i like the idea too...
but it makes me think of Market Garden and spawning in the sky.....
and all the vechicles with there guns pointed up.... :(
maybe have a bunch of random spawn points all over the map ..... blue falling like rain
then less chance of blue falling in the circle of death.... just a thought

[Swanny-CG]

I lied. It's done. And live. The spawn point is between the back base and the first row (of 2 bases) - you fall with your chute already deployed, and far enough up that you can make it to either the first row or the back base. If it doesn't work out we can a) go higher and not have the chute auto-deployed or b) move the spawn point or c) make it higher and leave the chute auto-deployed.

[rambo]

nice move swanny. now this map just got interesting. i can't wait to play it.

[Specialist]

I personally think that I look sexy even when parachuting.

[Rally Monkey]

I personally think that I look sexy even when parachuting.

Only if you spread your legs..... ;-)