C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

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Ninja2014
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C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Ninja2014 »

So, admins please tell me when is it ever legal to drop C4 about a humvee length from flagpole on a CTF map right after the flag has been picked up???? Specifically on Al Nas. Because that's just what someone (Cheesemaster) did. I drove a humvee toward the flagpole, picked up the flag, jumped back in the humvee, which was a humvees length from the pole, as it rolled a little from jumping out prior, when all of a sudden I was killed by C4 from Cheese. I have never seen him do that before and wouldn't call him a cheater but that time the C4 was dropped way too close to the flag. When has it ever been legal to throw C4 toward the enemy so close to the flagpole just to recover it? Because you were in chase is it ok? If it is then you might as well sit in the tower next to the flag and as soon as it's being picked up, throw C4 so it doesn't get far. Sorry Cheese for getting upset and calling you a F#$%*!, but you did blow that C4 way to close to the flag and you know it!
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fromage
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by fromage »

Ninja2014 wrote:So, admins please tell me when is it ever legal to drop C4 about a humvee length from flagpole on a CTF map right after the flag has been picked up???? Specifically on Al Nas. Because that's just what someone (Cheesemaster) did. I drove a humvee toward the flagpole, picked up the flag, jumped back in the humvee, which was a humvees length from the pole, as it rolled a little from jumping out prior, when all of a sudden I was killed by C4 from Cheese. I have never seen him do that before and wouldn't call him a cheater but that time the C4 was dropped way too close to the flag. When has it ever been legal to throw C4 toward the enemy so close to the flagpole just to recover it? Because you were in chase is it ok? If it is then you might as well sit in the tower next to the flag and as soon as it's being picked up, throw C4 so it doesn't get far. Sorry Cheese for getting upset and calling you a F#$%*!, but you did blow that C4 way to close to the flag and you know it!
Ninja, I was pretty surprised at the verbal assualt but I appreciate the apology. I know you didn't believe me at first (thinking I dropped it before you got there), but I appreciate you noting that it was after you grabbed the flag. I get that you're upset about being prevented from escaping with the flag (who wouldn't be), but there is a clear distinction in my mind that I've always used on Al Nas (or any CTF map) with numerous admins on and it has never been a problem.

I copied the rule, word for word, from the server rules page:
Question--Can we c4 flags.
Answer--Yes we can c4 flags on regular (conquest) maps including the push map, Medina Ridge.
No planting of C4 allowed on your main flag (the one you are defending from being stolen) on CTF maps.


The wording here states from being stolen. When I see people planting C4 ahead of time, I call them out. However, in our scenario, it's already stolen and you were running when I dropped it and clicked the trigger as you were driving away. In my mind, that's fair game.

My simple rule is that I will only drop C4 after the flag area is breached and in play, but NEVER before. Whether it's 1 foot away, or 10 humvees away, the flag is already stolen and moving. If I don't stop it at that point, I'm not doing my job in the game. If the person stealing didn't neutralize me, I have every right to vaporize them during the flag escape portion. To your point, people often stay on the rooftops, in the tower (in Nas for example) or just nearby to do just that. If someone kills me upon escape, it's because I, or my team, did not clear the area...but at least I had a chance to do so. Whereas planting C4 ahead of time doesn't really give you that option because someone could hide out of plain site and click the trigger upon the alert, giving no chance whatsoever. However, if it's already been stolen, feel free to drop C4 where you're at least within visible sight and vicinity of being taken out. This gives the opposing team a chance.

This happens to me just as much as it happens to others and I have no issue that they prevented an escape after I got the flag.
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by zanshin1 »

Perfectly legal and quite fun......once you snitch that flag....its no longer being "defended".....that team is in recovery mode.....C4 away!
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Trench »

Agree that the way I've always seen this rule enforced (even before becoming admin) was that tossing C4 onto someone is always acceptable even in CTF. In other words, its always allowed as an offensive weapon where you toss and detonate right away.

What's NOT acceptable, and is how all the rules and in-game reminders are written, is that you cannot plant C4 in advance to defend the flag. The general way to describe what that means in terms of "how close" is "you cannot pre-plant C4 anywhere within blast radius of the flag." In practical terms it will be slightly different per map; for example it's usually enforced as "C4 can't be planted inside the gate of red main on Al Nas", for Docks its usually "cannot plant C4 inside the warehouse", etc.

(If ever in doubt about whether you're too close, just don't plant C4, and plant a mine instead. An admin ruling will always favor "just keep planted C4 well away from the flag area.")

Note this "cannot plant C4 in advance to defend the flag" still apples even once the flag is on the move. It doesn't matter whether someone is trying to get to the flag or is attempting to leave with the flag; you can not have pre-planted C4 in the flag area that you then wait to detonate to kill that player.

So the words "from being stolen" don't mean what Cheese is interpreting them to mean; "the one you are defending from being stolen" is just clarifying the rule applies only to the actual CTF flag in your main base, versus "other regular flags" where planting C4 would be perfectly fine even on a CTF map.

"The flag was already stolen" doesn't change anything about the C4 rule. If you're in the flag area, the question is purely "did you toss C4 at someone and detonate it right away", versus did you plant C4 and then wait for someone to arrive or leave near your C4.

This case does sound like Cheese threw C4 at Ninja and his humvee after you arrived in the moments you were snatching the flag, and not a "pre-planted C4 and waited for someone to arrive / leave."

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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Hav3n »

If it is then you might as well sit in the tower next to the flag and as soon as it's being picked up, throw C4 so it doesn't get far.
Yup. Many do. When I'm playing on red, I plant my mines in a diamond formation® (patent pending) so that when Cheese rolls up in the spawn truck, he cannot pull up next to the flag, he has to get out of the truck for at least 10 feet, 20 feet round trip. This gives me time so that I'll be on the roof and just drop C4 on him. I drop it even before he touches the flag sometimes. In my understanding, this is legitimate because I am using C4 to address an active threat to the flag. I did not lay the C4 and wait, even for a few moments. It's an immediate use, and its right on top of the flag pole, but if you get near my flag pole, anything goes. (as long as its detonated immediately)

The same would be true if I spawned on blue next to the flag pole and saw someone coming from the bridge towards the flag. I could throw C4 near the Mp5 box and detonate them even before they touched the flag. I just couldn't lay it and wait for them to get there. Its an active type of thing. I've dropped C4 before and someone is killed or turns away, so I try to pick it up, detonate it immediately (if teammates aren't there) or pick up a different weapon kit. Never would I use it if someone else rolled up after the C4 has been on the ground for 1-2 seconds.
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Ninja2014 »

Ok, got it! Still doesn't seem right. I'll just hang in the tower and as I see Cheese rolling up I'll be ready to throw the C4 right after he touches the flag. ;) Thanks!
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Demonic »

would removing c4 kits be an option for ctf maps ?! it would eliminate questionable c4's being put where they shouldnt.......just a thought anyways....
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Hav3n »

Ninja2014 wrote:Ok, got it! Still doesn't seem right. I'll just hang in the tower and as I see Cheese rolling up I'll be ready to throw the C4 right after he touches the flag. ;) Thanks!
And therein lies the game. Stationary targets are often easy pickings, but diligent defense is a sure way to foil initial straightforward attempts on the flag.
would removing c4 kits be an option for ctf maps ?! it would eliminate questionable c4's being put where they shouldnt.......just a thought anyways....
It hasn't been a big problem in my mind. Mostly just the occasional new person that doesn't know the rules. I personally rely on C4 quite heavily with those spawn trucks. They're basically armored and if you're too far to get a mine under it, or its just sitting there and enemies are spawning in it, 1 RPG shot just isn't going to get it done.

:)
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Trench »

Ninja2014 wrote:Ok, got it! Still doesn't seem right. I'll just hang in the tower and as I see Cheese rolling up I'll be ready to throw the C4 right after he touches the flag.
Understood. I wasn't around when the rule was made, but it seems like the intention is to keep someone from laying C4 and then going to hide behind walls so you have no idea where they could be & no chance to defeat the C4 unless you have four simultaneous wrenches.

If you can toss C4 onto someone, then it's someone who is close enough for you to also see & kill before they toss or before they trigger. Yes, you can stand over the flag / close enough to the flag to drop C4 on it, as can be said of standing close enough to roll grenades when someone arrives, stand over it with an RPG or mines for any vehicle arrivals, etc. We have to try and see & preemptively kill all those kinds of folks.

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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Demonic »

Trench wrote:but it seems like the intention is to keep someone from laying C4 and then going to hide behind walls so you have no idea where they could be & no chance to defeat the C4 unless you have four simultaneous wrenches.

If you can toss C4 onto someone, then it's someone who is close enough for you to also see & kill before they toss or before they trigger. Yes, you can stand over the flag / close enough to the flag to drop C4 on it, as can be said of standing close enough to roll grenades when someone arrives, stand over it with an RPG or mines for any vehicle arrivals, etc. We have to try and see & preemptively kill all those kinds of folks.

-Trench
soooooo i guess giving each side an MRLS is outta the question ?! >: D

i usually lay mines down, coz i dont trust myself with c4 ( it tends to blow me up instead of the enemy...kinda like them freakin boomerang nades :( :( )
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by fromage »

Thanks for clearing that up Trench. In the way that I've always played, it's been to throw it at a threat but never planted in advance.

Haven, how are you planting mines and then switching to C4? Is that a loadout that I never noticed or the weapon switch glitch?

BTW, whatever the defensive measures, it makes the challenge that much more fun and sweeter when I escape with the flag to victory. :)
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Hav3n »

fromage wrote:Haven, how are you planting mines and then switching to C4? Is that a loadout that I never noticed or the weapon switch glitch?
RPG and SMAW kits both have mines AND C4 on Al Nas. It's a no brainer if I go into full cat crazy defense mode. I can lay deterence/prevention mines, destroy vehicles with RPG/SMAW, or resort to C4 when needed.

It's truly a trifecta de défense!
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by zanshin1 »

RPG and SMAW kits both have mines AND C4 on Al Nas. It's a no brainer if I go into full cat crazy defense mode. I can lay deterence/prevention mines, destroy vehicles with RPG/SMAW, or resort to C4 when needed


this needs to be implemented on all non helo maps.....ty!
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by Hav3n »

zanshin1 wrote:this needs to be implemented on all non helo maps.....ty!
I've seen many people talk about this, where instead of C4, they have a grail.

Whatchu gonna do wit da grail :?
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fromage
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Re: C4 on flag...how close is too close????????

Post by fromage »

Hav3n wrote:
fromage wrote:Haven, how are you planting mines and then switching to C4? Is that a loadout that I never noticed or the weapon switch glitch?
RPG and SMAW kits both have mines AND C4 on Al Nas. It's a no brainer if I go into full cat crazy defense mode. I can lay deterence/prevention mines, destroy vehicles with RPG/SMAW, or resort to C4 when needed.

It's truly a trifecta de défense!
I can't say I've noticed that, interesting. Then again, I only use the charm kit. 8-)
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