Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

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steve
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Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by steve »

Yesterday, while on your TS, I was told that I was being kicked for hacking... I do not. I have read many of your ban appeals and a lot of them said that they were banned because of hacking by EA 117 and they claimed they were not.

So, let me explain how you both can be right in this situation. From your point of view, your screen shots are showing that these people (like myself) are using no fog and radar hacks. When you understand how the screen shots work on the technical side, then you will understand why those screen shots (may) be false.

When 1942 first came out in 2002 or so, most of the players were using windows 98 or XP as their operating system. So when the game was installed, the .rfa files for the game were assigned to designated sectors of the computer. This usually was in a specific area.

For the game to work, there is a client side coding (this usually is visibilty, people and other minor stuff) and a server side coding. This would include mesh, building and such. Packets are sent back and forth during the game from the server to the local computer. This is how (in simple terms) the game works.

To receive a screen shot, the server sends packets to the local computer (milliseconds) scanning the memory for files on the client side. If the files are there, then you get a good screen shot, however if the clients files are not there.. the screen shot has issues.

The older operating systems made these .rfa files fixed so when packets were sent to the local computer.. they were there, however when the newer operating systems came to be, these files were no longer fixed. It works in the same manner when you mod a map. If the modder puts a building in the middle of a runway and does not give the players the patch for the map, then the building is still there, but you cannot see it unless you have the patch.

When the remote manager requests a screen shot of a player, the screen shot the server has shows everything.. where the players are and no fog and such. When the packets sent are returned with the identified files.. they are placed on the screen shot. This will add the fog and eliminate the other team players location.

When starting a game form a person on a local computer, when 1942 was installed... the computer may have placed those files in another sector of the hard drive that was not in the fixed area when the game initially came out. So, the player sees fog and only their team mates, while a screen shot may show the remote manager something totally different.

BF 1942 is a dying game, in fact it is near death. I don't think admins who have a wild hair up their ass should be banning or kicking people on an emotional whim. There are other servers out there and I only played on your server because of the good people I had met on your teamspeak. I don't think I will be playing on your server anymore because of the stupidity of an admin.

If Pinhead would like me to come on teamspeak to talk... he can contact me via email. you have it.
I thought it would important to educate the uneducated. thank you,

Steve
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by S.O.S »

Thanks for the technical input. However I don't quit buy your story. We have caught a few cheaters through SS out of thousands SS taken and we were never wrong. If I get your explanations correctly, you put some files at non-default locations when you installed BF1942 so BFRM didn't catch them while taking a SS, thus the fog is no show and the opposite team player is visible. Then I have a simple solution for you to get unbanned. Get a new CD, install at default locations. Come back, let us take a few more SSs. If everything is clean, welcome back. But before you can play, I need you to change your attitude and make an apology here. You were banned strictly to ensure a fair play on the server. Nothing personal or emotional. You need to improve your skills A LOT, even with cheats, to anger me for a ban. We want to keep our server occupied as much as possible, but we will also do everything possible to keep cheaters out.
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Nightstalker »

steve wrote:.............
BF 1942 is a dying game, in fact it is near death. I don't think admins who have a wild hair up their ass should be banning or kicking people on an emotional whim. There are other servers out there and I only played on your server because of the good people I had met on your teamspeak. I don't think I will be playing on your server anymore because of the stupidity of an admin.

If Pinhead would like me to come on teamspeak to talk... he can contact me via email. you have it.
I thought it would important to educate the uneducated. thank you,

Steve

Steve,

I will go one step further all the while agreeing WHOLE heartedly with SOS's reply. Now mind you this is just on a "whim" so bare with me. With all the technical tid bits you gave us, what OS are you running. I can *guarantee* there is someone here that is running the same OS as you AND that I will also give a *guarantee* that I *know* there is no chance of them running any hack. So again whimsically and hairy assed, I will take of screenshot of them. When their screenshot comes back looking like yours , I will give many thanks for your input and give that admin some clippers for his rectal problem. If their SS comes back clean ... well ... I will personally send your apology to the stupid, egotistical and hairy assed admin for you. I have a funny feeling I need to start writing that admin of the best DC server of this "dying" game.

So was it XP, Win 7, Vista, Win 8?
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Trench »

steve wrote:When the remote manager requests a screen shot of a player, the screen shot the server has shows everything...
Steve,

I am just another player and not an admin, I have not seen your screen shot, and my opinion means nothing to your ban. I do happen to be a developer or Windows kernel-mode file system and networking software.

What you're describing throughout your post is almost close to the kind of process that would occur when shadowing a player; e.g. similar to what happens when you're following another player after your death cam, etc. An admin following your player will indeed be subject to seeing only that which their own local RFAs says exists and data received from the server says exists.

What the admin client or other following client sees is "by the rules of the game's design," and is based on object and positioning data being exchanged between the server and your client. That data is simply shared with the admin client and any other players who are following you (such as after death cam) so these additional clients can also build the same kind of view you're seeing, albeit independently and not "an actual mirror image" of what you're seeing.

But none of that is how no-fogs and map hacks are detected and caught, nor is that what's meant by "screen shot."

The PunkBuster (not Battlefield 1942) screen shot capability is using DirectX at the client side (your computer) to capture the client-side screen shot, and then transmits a defined portion of that current rasterized DirectX display surface to the PB server. It is not, as you have stated, any kind of server-side merge or server-side composition of elements or objects that may or may not have been visible at the client machine at the time.

Transmission of the actual rasterized client-side screen image is the reason PB screen shot bandwidth is so limited. If they were composing based on vector, object and positioning data from the RFAs and gameplay -- or if they were simply making an independent screen shot at the admin client machine following you -- we would have beautiful 480p to 1080p screen shots every time to show for it, albeit with the inherent assumptions you're talking about of what was or was not actually visible at the player's client computer.

But that's not the case; screen shots are not ambiguous and are designed to capture and upload from the client-side what is actually on display at the client computer of the player for which a screen shot was requested. Indeed PB screen shots can fail, but not in any of the ways you're describing. Had I not explored this topic in depth when trying to debug why a particular machine and driver combination produced completely blank PB screen shots, I wouldn't have been familiar enough with the PB client-side screen shot facility to stand on this assertion that a capture of the rasterized client-side display surface is what the PB client transmits to the server.

-Trench
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by steve »

Actually Trench you are mistaken. server side cannot capture a client side screen shot. The server compiles the packets sent back and for to create a screen shot on the server. Years ago, we created a clan called Dawn Of Atheria, (DOA) where several programers created PB proof hacks and for this game.

Over 400 DOA members had them and I kinda know what I am talking about. We gave up hacking when BF1942 started dying out. One of the reasons why PB stopped supporting black bag ops and 42 was because of the new operating systems. I gave up hacking a few years ago, because I thought is was more fun playing normal. Even when many on your teamspeak were wondering they could get some pb proof hacks, I kept my mouth shut.

As far as buying a new CD key to join the game.. Are you living in the stone age? You can google CD Key changer and CD Key gen for 42 and get it for free. Like I said before, the only reason why I played on your server is because of the people I met on your teamspeak... most of them were cool.

I am sure that many of the screen shots you have taken of players who claim that they were not cheating.. were really not cheating. It is a glitch in the remote manager because it is not supported when new operating systems come into play.

I have read many of your "Unban" requests and many have stated they were not cheating when you banned them. You are banning a lot of players who may not have been cheating even though the screen shots you have taken show different. Either way, it is just a game.. it should be illegal on how much I really don't care.

if some of the players on your server were using any of the hacks we made, no screen shot would have proven otherwise... and I can almost gaurantee some of the players (like some have said on your TS) are using hacks or what we used to call.. "Suplemental Programs".

You can close this post after this because I won't be checking it, but if you would like to talk live on your TS... email me. funstuff.sba@gmail.com

In short,... I know I wasn't hacking or using any programs because I gave that up years ago. Do what you will. There are other servers and other games, but some of the guys on your TS are pretty cool. I still will pop on from time to time to say hello.

thanks
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Trench »

steve wrote:Actually Trench you are mistaken. server side cannot capture a client side screen shot. The server compiles the packets sent back and for to create a screen shot on the server.
But I'm actually agreeing that "server side cannot capture a client side screen shot." That the server neither takes or makes the screen shot in question here is exactly what I described. The PB client code is what's taking the screen shot, on the client computer itself. The PB server requested the PB client to take the screen shot, and the PB server receives the screen capture as an already composed image from the PB client.

-Trench
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by steve »

Yes, I agree, but it all happens through packets. The server has a client screen shot without the client side files. This means the shot does NOT have fog, team players or other minor stuff. When the packets come back from the client side with the files.. then the screen shot adds the fog and team players (yours only).

This is how the screen shot operation works. This is why there is clent side and server side files. A smart person who understood modding maps and programming would easily grasp this.
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Nightstalker »

Steve, you got busted. We have seen screenshots from old, new, cheap and expensive machines. Trench explained to you how it works in great detail. Let me try layman's terms, PB on the server sends a request to the PB on your PC. Your PB ask your PC to get the screenshot. That screenshot is what YOU are seeing. Your PC gives that screenshot to the PB on your PC which is then sent to the PB on server and logged. We see it, again just to clarify, it is what you see. We saw the hack, just like we saw the other people hacking. Following that, you along with the others are no longer allowed to play on this server. Simple as that. EA117 does not have a place, nor time or any compassion for people hacking. I am not trying to be a dick but its the truth.

Oh and we have guys that are VERY good at modding. Some are admins and they have banned people for the same.

If I were you I would remove ANY trace of any hack you have and do a clean install.
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by steve »

Trench, I am not being disrespectful towards you, I am just stating that the people in EA 117 who are deciding if people are hacking have no idea how the system works and are making bad decisions due to lack of knowledge.

I am saying, a smart person would set a time to speak on the teamspeak server to speak directly. I think the ignorance (this means that you just don't know) of some people can be a hinderance to the growth of this clan.... my email is in above post if you wish to continue this conversation. thanks
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by steve »

Nightstalker.. you have no clue on what was being said between trench and myself. Nothing was busted. Should we use smaller words for you to understand? Trench was actually agreeing with me.
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Trench »

steve wrote:Trench was actually agreeing with me.
No, I'm not agreeing with you. You made a response that "a server cannot take a client-side screen shot", and I said that yes, I agree the server isn't what takes the screen shot. Which should have been obvious, because everything I had been describing up to that point is that client-side is what's taking the screen shot, not server-side code taking or composing the screen shot.

-Trench
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by fromage »

Trench wrote:
steve wrote:When the remote manager requests a screen shot of a player, the screen shot the server has shows everything...
Steve,

I am just another player and not an admin, I have not seen your screen shot, and my opinion means nothing to your ban. I do happen to be a developer or Windows kernel-mode file system and networking software.

What you're describing throughout your post is almost close to the kind of process that would occur when shadowing a player; e.g. similar to what happens when you're following another player after your death cam, etc. An admin following your player will indeed be subject to seeing only that which their own local RFAs says exists and data received from the server says exists.

What the admin client or other following client sees is "by the rules of the game's design," and is based on object and positioning data being exchanged between the server and your client. That data is simply shared with the admin client and any other players who are following you (such as after death cam) so these additional clients can also build the same kind of view you're seeing, albeit independently and not "an actual mirror image" of what you're seeing.

But none of that is how no-fogs and map hacks are detected and caught, nor is that what's meant by "screen shot."

The PunkBuster (not Battlefield 1942) screen shot capability is using DirectX at the client side (your computer) to capture the client-side screen shot, and then transmits a defined portion of that current rasterized DirectX display surface to the PB server. It is not, as you have stated, any kind of server-side merge or server-side composition of elements or objects that may or may not have been visible at the client machine at the time.

Transmission of the actual rasterized client-side screen image is the reason PB screen shot bandwidth is so limited. If they were composing based on vector, object and positioning data from the RFAs and gameplay -- or if they were simply making an independent screen shot at the admin client machine following you -- we would have beautiful 480p to 1080p screen shots every time to show for it, albeit with the inherent assumptions you're talking about of what was or was not actually visible at the player's client computer.

But that's not the case; screen shots are not ambiguous and are designed to capture and upload from the client-side what is actually on display at the client computer of the player for which a screen shot was requested. Indeed PB screen shots can fail, but not in any of the ways you're describing. Had I not explored this topic in depth when trying to debug why a particular machine and driver combination produced completely blank PB screen shots, I wouldn't have been familiar enough with the PB client-side screen shot facility to stand on this assertion that a capture of the rasterized client-side display surface is what the PB client transmits to the server.

-Trench
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Nightstalker »

Sure, I am all for smaller words. Like when I asked for your OS you could say Win 7 instead of Windows 7.

And FWIW, Trench and I have had many talks on SS and if you would notice I was in agreement with you also about the server itself not taking the screenshot but YOUR PC/PB doing so and sending it to the server.

Long in the short, we have already been there and done that. We have seen these hacks before and will see them again. I am sure what I am about to say will shock people but, we have even gone as far as to try and DISprove some thoughts of people cheating in hopes that we were wrong. So you may need to get YOUR facts straight before you come on here spewing a bunch of crap about how these admin INCLUDING the one that banned you are off the cuff, ban happy, hairy assed, ignorant people and realize that you are dealing with some of the most understanding people on the net. Hell, I tried to ask for your OS so we could compare against another with the same OS. Which, was giving you benefit of the doubt. Why, I don't know and now I am REALLY regretting it. Of course you and I both know, theirs would come back clean (as long as they are not running a hack) and would REALLY prove to be a burden on your case.

Have a good day and OK you are not "busted" just caught.
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Nightstalker »

Dang I wrote that ^^^ an hour ago and forgot to send it before I went outside then come back in and see it still on the "post reply" screen LOLOLOL
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Re: Why remote mgr screen shots are false on newer machines

Post by Sarge 1/68th Armor »

OMG!! See what happens when you use big words.... nothing but trouble.
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