Current Map Rotation

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Trench
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Current Map Rotation

Post by Trench »

BangBangOw<CP*SF> wrote:October 1st, 2021, 10:45 amTurning map vote off.. with the small list.. so every map is a “good” one.

We currently have nineteen maps treated as "the good ones":

Nas CTF, El Al CTF, Coastal CTF, Docks CTF, Berlin CTF, Village CTF, Bocage CTF, Wake CQ, El Al Day 2 CQ (Helos), Gazala CTF, Basrah's Edge CTF, Eastings CTF, Kursk CTF, Urban CTF, Inshallah CTF, Bridge CTF, Philippines CTF, Caen CTF, and Britain CTF.

Every morning when the server wakes up, it randomizes the order among this group of "good" maps such that they will always appear "near the start of the map list for easy voting", but "not in the same order you saw them in yesterday."

In addition, the randomization process inserts a "unique map" (one that is not in "the good list", and one we don't see every day) between every four of the "good maps" that were inserted into the list.

In reality, you don't see "purely the described pattern", because there are additional logic conditions to the "randomization" process. Such as "don't let more than three maps of the same mode (CTF or CQ) appear in a row, without inserting a map with a different mode." And "don't let two different modes of the same map appear closer than 10 maps to each other."

But in basic terms, if you just let the rotation play (not withstanding that this is rarely what actually happens), you'll encounter four "good maps" followed by "something you don't normally see", followed by more "good maps". Knowing that we'll vote Al Nas every day regardless of where we put it in the rotation; and wanting to give a chance for "something else" to come up after Al Nas each day. (Substitute "Lost Village" or "Gazala" for "Al Nas" in that statement, as needed.)

Because a static rotation worked, for as long as it worked. Until it didn't work. Back then (maybe 2015 or 2016) what was "obvious" was that we needed to mix things up more, because players said seeing the same "short list" every day is what bored them. After doing that for a while, what was "obvious" was that any map list we come up with is "wrong" for some players some of the time, so please let us vote.

And so voting was introduced, on top of the mixing up the map rotation. Such that if no voting happens, what you'll get is "the good maps" in addition to a little variety. But if we simply want to get to "some other good map" regardless of where we were at in the map list, voting lets us go there, too.

Which maybe brings us to the real point: If there actually was some "right map" which simply isn't being played, we would be playing it. Because if it was as obvious as you're suggesting it is, and everyone playing agreed with you that it's that obvious, we would vote and a majority would agree and we would be playing it.

But that's not what happens, is it. Because "right map" actually is not obvious among the players at any given time. If a vote for map X wasn't sufficient to make us get there, an admin simply forcing map "X" at that moment isn't going to make the map any more appreciated by the same people who were present for the vote.


So let's hear some ideas about what we think would improve the process. Because no, "Duh, we just need to set a map rotation that is good" is not the panacea you're proposing that it would be. But maybe there is something else that can be done. We have been actively trying to make something which pleases "most of the people most of the time" over the years, as you can see in the evolution just described.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

Well I hope my sometimes flamboyant hating of certain map switches isn't discouraging to other players or the admins. This server has been by far my favorite gaming experience. And from what I have been hearing of the modern gaming communities, this one is pretty low key and chill. I was actually just wishing the other day that there was some way for us to like buy the admins a pizza party or something cheesy out of that to show our appreciation. Not sucking up, just saying I appreciate this place to play DC, a lot.

I gotta admit sometimes - also because I have other things to do, mainly sleep - I just join for nas and then call it at that, unless the next map is super tempting. Which I honestly chalk up as a good night, since DC is kind of a guilty pleasure for me, or at least it is with playing it as much as I do, and I struggle to get enough sleep when I play too much. And Nas usually plays right next to when I sleep/can get away from wife and kid for some gaming.

I totally understand that everyone has different needs and wants around the maps. The admins want to make everyone happy, and have their various ways of attempting to do that through their own values. Like, take Jolly's manic map change-fests versus Trench's thou-shall-not-interfere ethic. That's part of what I love about this server that it manages to host a lot of different characters and value, and we're not just some place where the nastiest and most aggressive are the petty dictators. Same for players. Fluffy hates nas, and I think just rage-owned us to prove it. Others love it. Others wanna try new maps. I think that's great. I'll tone down the nas voting cause I know that can get annoying. Maybe just give it twice and then leave it at that. I can get pretty attached at times I guess, haha. This is "my time"!!!! Where's "my mappppp" Mommmmiii :D
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

Also, that's a pretty amazingly fair map rotation system/philosophy trench, haha. Who came up with that, you?
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HairyRussianDude
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by HairyRussianDude »

Trench,

A certain player once made a comment to me about seeing how the sausage is made...
Thanks for showing everybody our sausage.
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BangBangOw<CP*SF>
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BangBangOw<CP*SF> »

Good explanation Trench,

I just don’t want to see this game die.

AX has no players anymore and they used to have 64/64 daily…

I don’t want this community to drop, as it’s the only USA DC community and the best one left in my opinion, and has been the best one since I started playing.

Every night there’s usually 25 map votes and sometimes it’s for the same maps over and over again.

It’s get to a point where Trench will say something like “8th times a charm” or 5 failed votes let’s give it another go…

Is it hard to please everyone.. yes. (Unless you’re wearing blinks pink wig…)

However we know which maps seed players and which ones will kill it. It’s not a perfect science, and I wasn’t trying to start conflict or anything lol. Just suggestions.

Worst case we can just put bangs custom maps on the server and get 64/64… 😉😉
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by Trench »

sanchez wrote:October 2nd, 2021, 8:49 pm How about playing couple of days a week just infantry maps? or the other way around couple of day a week big maps with planes only
That could be a good idea, Sanchez. Similar to how the maps are already categorized by "CTF versus Conquest" and making sure a certain number of one doesn't happen without injecting a certain number of another, maybe an arbitrary "type of map" classification could be tracked and used in the randomization process, too.

Such that the randomization could be deciding "put a bunch of plane maps in a row" and then later "put a bunch of infantry maps in a row", rather than only knowing "map names" versus "map game modes". Voting could still take us "out of one block of maps and into the other"; but left to run as-is the map order would group them together.

Have to give that some thought.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

Trench wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 10:22 pm Voting could still take us "out of one block of maps and into the other"; but left to run as-is the map order would group them together.
Really? That's cool. Would you initialize the block of maps by just voting for the first map in that block rotation, or what?

Another idea is to categorize maps as Nas and non-nas, and just play an occasional non-nas map sometinmes, maybe.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by Trench »

I just mean that they would be grouped together like that. Similar to how -- right now -- at the very end of the map list, we always have the COOP-mode maps grouped together.

You vote to one of the COOP maps, and you end up playing COOP map after COOP map until you "vote out of that block". That's all I'm talking about.

We would group a bunch of "big plane maps" together, despite the order of those maps being randomized every day. Once you started playing one, you'll probably stay in that block until someone successfully votes away from it. (Or you finish them all.) Same with the block of infantry maps.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by sanchez »

I am going to be honest as to why I leave the server when big maps with planes are played, one day I said it and I was told to go to another server, however, it might be important to express why we prefer some maps. Personally, when we play big plane maps I don't have fun I am not a good pilot and it is a waiting game when somebody steals the flag and then guys in the ground trying to stop it, but if nobody tries then is it just a game of guys waiting in the main base and others having fun engaged in dog fights they won't even go for the flag, flying helicopters are suicide missions because planes will get you in seconds like shooting turkeys. That Harrier plane is a killer you shoot stinger with no effect, when these maps are played in conquest mode it is a different story, people have to get out of mains to get outposts or defend them, choppers are good to destroy tanks and planes get the choppers everybody is working to win the game. This is just my opinion other people might have different opinions.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BangBangOw<CP*SF> »

Conquest is such a refresher after so many CTF maps.

Especially the push map concept like Medina ridge, really makes you organize attacks rather than spawn camp like Bang. Weapons bunks is another one that if played right is really really fun.

Sadly there’s only one “push map” in the generic DC mod, however plenty of CQ options.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by tonawandares »

sanchez wrote: I am going to be honest as to why I leave the server when big maps with planes are played, one day I said it and I was told to go to another server, however, it might be important to express why we prefer some maps. Personally, when we play big plane maps I don't have fun I am not a good pilot and it is a waiting game when somebody steals the flag and then guys in the ground trying to stop it, but if nobody tries then is it just a game of guys waiting in the main base and others having fun engaged in dog fights they won't even go for the flag, flying helicopters are suicide missions because planes will get you in seconds like shooting turkeys. That Harrier plane is a killer you shoot stinger with no effect, when these maps are played in conquest mode it is a different story, people have to get out of mains to get outposts or defend them, choppers are good to destroy tanks and planes get the choppers everybody is working to win the game. This is just my opinion other people might have different opinions.
Interesting thoughts...

I'm going to be honest too. I've spent most of my time playing this game in the air, be it jets or helos.
Personally, when we play infantry maps, I don't have as much fun because I'm not very good on the ground...but I don't leave because of that.
I will leave a ground map if I don't like the map though, but that is rare. I continue to play just waiting for the "big plane maps" or helo maps, but even then I have to try to measure my gameplay because if folks stop flying, then I can't have any fun. So I've found some pleasure in just following pilots around buzzing them a wee bit and mirroring their moves...like with you on Gazala Coop the other night. I have to admit though, I will go all out for a bit.
On CTF maps like El Al and Gazala, I've historically been a defensive pilot. I learned to love that tactic when Hellzhautdogs CTF server first came online with York and Oscar at the helm.
So I'm not "generally" out looking for a dogfight...in fact, they bore me most times. But I'm not generally looking to steal the flag either.
I like playing defensively which is half of the game plan options.

As to the comment you made about it being a turkey shoot if you venture out into a map with a helo against jets...well, I would agree that your odds of survival are lower but I've killed countless jets flying helos...in fact, I challenge you to come after me in a jet whilst I fly the apache. Trench is tremendously good at, if not killing jets with a helo, at least damaging them to the point of retreat.

My point is this...we each have developed our own flavor for gameplay and love of maps. We've all selected our weapon(s) of choice and tend to gravitate toward that when the game starts.

I've always tried to make outposts something for the Teams to want to control when modding CTF. I've also provided ample tools to get the job done. I'm ever amazed at Gazala. Has anyone ever heard of swooping the flag?
And finally, you may think you aren't hurting the harrier with a stinger unless you happen to be the one flying it.

Just my thoughts

~ tona
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

As I've said time and again, we need an Al Nas SSM with Apaches and a super low flight ceiling. That would solve all of these problems. Bang?
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by tonawandares »

BlinkofanEye wrote: October 6th, 2021, 10:55 am As I've said time and again, we need an Al Nas SSM with Apaches and a super low flight ceiling. That would solve all of these problems. Bang?
Over and over...we've ignored such requests...

~ tona
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by Dogema »

Lots of server game theory here...thank you for explaining.

I think the system is working well how it is. That said, agree with sanchez that big plane maps should be more Conquest oriented. Hard to remember the last time I played Gazala Conquest without bots and that is a lot of fun. Map voting is not usually a problem unless I'm in the middle of a firefight or the same map comes up right after a vote ends.

Oh and agree with helos on Nas, if not Apaches, maybe Blackhawks...
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

Agreed dogma, gaz conq is fun. We’d play that on TmP server a lot with a bunch of good pilots and it helps balance out the crazy good pilots…
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by BlinkofanEye »

Blackhawks on nas sounds interesting. They’d be pretty cumbersome to move around. I remember one of the nas variants had the little helps that can hold 4 people. Fast and light.
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Re: Current Map Rotation

Post by tonawandares »

Dogema wrote: Hard to remember the last time I played Gazala Conquest without bots and that is a lot of fun.
I suspect the population numbers will increase over the Winter with the typical Holiday lull.
I would be willing to invest some time in revamping Gazala if folks would actually play it.
But to spend the personal time I don't really have to only have a map like that not being played isn't worth it.
The current population of players tends to gravitate towards small CTF than a wonderful map like Gazala CQ or even El Alamein.

~ tona
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