What is, and is not, open season in uncap main

[Hav3n]

So, we're playing Gazala Saturday night and I am flying Mig and I fly over middle of map and see a huge (HUGE!) trail of fire and I'm like, "I'm all over that" and sure enough it is making a b-line for blue main. I saw it a little ways south of where blue main even starts at the nearest and perhaps the middle of the map at the furthest. It is A-10 and I shoot it down with machine gun fire as it flies over blue runway.

Next thing I know, I_am_not_your_father is chatting that is was "not cool" of me to do that and I think he said that I knew it too or something. I quickly respond that I saw the jet on fire, "Why shouldn't I shoot at it?" So he kicks me for 1 min for "smarty mouth" as he called it. I was not trying to be smart at all, I was genuinely stating my rationale for shooting at his jet and inviting clarification of the rules as I understood them, given his accusatory tone. I rejoin and am genuinely interested in finding out what on earth I seem to have disrupted or rules I broke. AIDS just tells me to let it go and father says I knew what I did wrong.

Well, no father, I did not understand what I did wrong. Please correct me. You felt strongly enough about it to kick me from the server because I calmly and succinctly stated my understanding of what is open season at an uncap main is. That being that anything that has left the base and engaged in the "battle space" is not then protected by the uncap rule. A jet that is returning, a helicopter, a tank, etc...or anything returning from outside main can be shot at. Does it make a difference that I was not the unit that inflicted the original damage?

My guess is that father did not realize I had seen him well outside his main and followed him in. I wonder if he thinks I was camping their main just waiting for "flaming jets" to come back to shoot at? I'd have explained more, but he was so quick to kick me after my initial response that I couldn't get more out than that I saw him on fire. Like I said, I didn't really have a chance to get clarification after rejoining.

So, some clarification would be cool from the powers that be.

[Beaver]

I've been shot down many a time flying over the airstrip, or trying to land on the airstrip for repair. its annoying, but i think its far. Think i've even had it done by some admins (cant remember)

[toolman]

What you describe sounds like a reverse form of camping I believe. Not that I'm saying that's what you were doing or that it's against rules...I'll explain the rules as I understand them and follow them regarding this.

We all know you can't fire into mains.

Using EL Alamien as an example if you sit/or circle at the end of the runway and engage planes as soon as they are airborne it's still camping. Having a pile of blown up tanks just outside the entrance to mains on eastings is not acceptable. It's a inevitable variable that is subject to interpretation based on map, vehicle and situation of game/players.

Many times on bocage2 while gunning I will be shooting at a helo while they run all the way back to their main to repair...generally once they reach their main I will stop shooting as to not cause collateral damage to ground vehicles. I am already engaged and in a fight with them so them using the main as a "safe zone" is no excuse..I have every right (by rule) to continue shooting at them...I just choose not to generally (pilot is in control, I'm just gunning so my shots can go anywhere) and if I'm the one smoking and they kill me in my main I do nothing if they were previously engaged with me.

Now let's say you are in A10 and just went through a long tough dogfight and you finally got the mig that was on you, your smoking hard, almost out of ammo...time to fix plane....just when you are about 50 yards from landing and getting "officially" into main the SA3 takes you out, or the frog that just took out the scud (legally) pops a few rounds into you as he is leaving and you die...

see where I'm going??

There is no "Official 100% all encompassing" set of rules concerning things like this. No exact interpretation..it's something that is discouraged on some maps and allowed on others.

While I don't know the exact circumstances other than what you have described I personally read it as that you saw a easy kill on a running target and was too close to main when you killed. You have probably done it before, but because it was an admin this time he was able to notice and make a judgment from his perspective. I have done the same thing...kicking someone who was too close to a main taking out easy targets that were me or someone that I could actually see good enough to make a fair judgment.

If you said that you were fighting/engaged with this target for a period of time BEFORE he was smoking and running to main then no harm/no foul.... you earned that kill and there is no "base" like playing tag as kids that an opponent can run and hide too.

However just because you did earn that kill you should not go after a vehicle/plane that is coming back for repairs on his last leg as you leave the opponents main to get an easy kill..at least if he is pretty close to a main.

I hope I cleared up some things.

[Target(+)]

Yeh attacking anything returning from battle I think is legit.. or thats how i've always played.. although some noobs consider a plane thats taking off and only a few feet in the air to be "out of the main" I think most admins consider destroying those camping.

I was on last night, but I only know ianyf was in the a10 for pretty much the whole game. Hopefully you can get a response for him here and he can clarify the kick.

[WaffleFries]

I was under the impression that you could even legally take out a plane repairing on the roof of the hanger (or in it) on El Al for example. ie; once a plane takes off for the first time after it spawns, it no longer is exempt from being attacked no matter where it goes.

[LF55]

Waffle, I agree. I don't like it, but I agree that's the rule. I recall Swanny being explicit (sans his pants of course) that a returning aircraft to base whether for repairs or ammo is fair game. My concern is that like attacking the SA3, a plane landing is an opportunity for more than just the authorized collateral damage.

[i_am_not_your_father]

My A10 was damaged badly by shilka and not from a dogfight. So I headed home to repair while checking my rear view ... everything looked clear. If I know I have a jet on me I will not approach the runway as slowly and calmly as I did. Furthermore I have digital earphones and audio settings set on high quality so I'll also hear you if I am in a hot pursuit. As I am about to touch down the end of the runway, Hav33n appears from nowhere and shoots me down with a Mig. I have seen Hav33n flying high above our air space before so his attack looked conspicuous. So I "warned" him. He then replies and I paraphrase, "if I see an enemy vehicle smoking in your main base I will take it down". Wrong answer buddy so I kicked you for 1-min. According to your rationale, If I am in a badly damaged helo above our hangar repairing it, it is ok for you to fly into our main base and destroy it with a jet. Now if I was engaged in a dog fight with you and you followed me to our main base then that's a different story.

After the kick, you then rejoin and pressure for answers. You were asked to drop it and continue playing but you ignored those requests. Next map rotation and you are still pressing for answers. I took the time to respond to you during game but obviously you are not satisfied otherwise you wouldn't be posting this.

Listen, every kick/ban/warning has its circumstances and interpretations. But apparently not matter what we say or how we rule, you will never be satisfied. I think you are a good player and have nothing against you other than your taunting attitude at times (although it has gotten better lately). So this will be my only response to Hav33n 'cause I got better things to do.


i_am_not_your_father

[S.O.S]

Generally we allow people to chase and kill planes going back to main, especially when you were engaged in a dogfight and your opponent was trying to escape. You can't use main as a safe zone when you are losing. But waiting high at the end of runway to take out planes taking off or on the ground IS considered camping. In your case Hav3n, since you were not fighting against father, he can't tell whether you spotted him far and followed him in or just being a runway hunter. I don't think he had ways to verify what you told him nor time to argue with you. From this point of view, I'd say a 1-minute kick is fair. I won't be surprised if he banned you for that act. I understand you are just trying to clarify how the rules are enforced in the server Hav3n, we try our best but there can be discrepancies here and there, especially in the heat of battle when killing and surviving are the priorities for everyone. So just let it go. If you face the same situation next time, just wait the A10 to take off again. For equally good pilots, flying MIG against A10 is like driving T72 against Bradley, your winning chance is really good.

SOS

[Mordor]

I think Haven or whatever his name is should stop fkn whining everytime he's kicked, it's fkn pathetic, he sounds like a child in a schoolyard crying, "there teazing me, there teazing me ' !!

[i_am_not_your_father]

Remember Father, the A10 flames/smoke can be seen quite aways out. Spec told me they can see you but you can't see them.

Ok, let's say he saw me from way out and he took me out as I was landing. Did I kick/ban him for that? No! Did I warn him for what could have been camping? Yes.

So why did I kick him for 1-min? Because his response led me to believe his misinterpretation of the rules. Chat logs will be reviewed.

i_am_not_your_father

[Hav3n]

It boils down to the answer I gave, "I can shoot flaming stuff in blue main." It just came off wrong. I can guarantee I was making no mischief.

Mordor, I've heard you're a pretty cool guy. Sorry to give you that impression. In fact, I'm sure if we were all in the same room, we'd probably get along great. Something about the anonymity of the internet that brings out the worst in me.

I'll try to be better in the future.

However, I may be playing less or not at all. Nothing to do with my last couple of incidents on the boards though. I'm just spending too much time playing and need to focus on real life I think. So, perhaps I'll see you guys a little more, but I may be signing off soon. Its kind of sad I missed the glory days of DC. Glad I caught this server while its still kicking!

Thanks.

[Hav3n]

Remember Father, the A10 flames/smoke can be seen quite aways out. Spec told me they can see you but you can't see them.

Ok, let's say he saw me from way out and he took me out as I was landing. Did I kick/ban him for that? No! Did I warn him for what could have been camping? Yes.

So why did I kick him for 1-min? Because his response led me to believe his misinterpretation of the rules. Chat logs will be reviewed.

i_am_not_your_father

Yeah, you thought I meant I could shoot anything flaming no matter what. I thought you were saying I couldn't shoot stuff in main, even if it is fleeing back. We both got caught in the snare of text based communication. So much opportunity for misunderstanding.

Overall, I think we agree.

No worries.

[gat]

time in teamspeak could help in a stuation like this. i wish more of you would use ts, it adds to the fun and idle chat is cool to. it has saved a few ppl from getting shot down, because they asked me not to. lol.

admining a server can be difficult, i know ive been 1 for a few clans. everyone always ask Y this or that. i rarley ever gone into detail in game. it takes game time away and chat spams. posting it in forums is right way. BUT, it should be for all admins to discuss privately, then for the 2 directly involved to handle. so it doesnt turn into airing dirty laudry type post.

admins can be wrong, (not saying father is) we all make mistakes, its how we handle them that defines us.
i have not seen a single admin abuse thier privelage in my time on this server.

getting kicked for what an admin considered an ofense happens all the time. by the time you reload the map your kick time has expired. dont drag it out just continue playing.

i have been kicked from this server, i forget what for, i didnt post to ask why, i didnt challenge the admin, i just rejoined and continued to play. i do recall AIDS telling me i could be kicked for doing something i did while we were in ts 1 time, and havent done it again.

after all we all like to play this game, to relax, chat with friends, have a good time.
the best part about this game is you can get beat down real bad on 1 map and rule the next!..
just my humble opinion, thanks gat.

[Hav3n]

So true gat. I started to respect and like AIDS and Specialist a lot more after chilling with them on teamspeak. Before then, I always secretly reveled in killing AIDS. Now, its like killing a friend.

[LF55]

So true gat. I started to respect and like AIDS and Specialist a lot more after chilling with them on teamspeak. Before then, I always secretly reveled in killing AIDS. Now, its like killing a friend.

Whoa Hav3n dude. Knowing Aids makes most of us want to kill him more. Of course, put him the F$#@ing Apache and killing him is not an option. Running is not an option either. Dying mandatory. ; )

[Old Man Shea]

Just wanted to get my opinion in, as its worth more than gold
A few days ago in Guadalcanal I was in the f-16 and as im flying over the southwesterly flag tward the red main i saw the frog come out from behind the mountains. Knowing how deadly the frog can be, I seized the chance. I was then told it was a cheap shot by the (ex) pilot beacuse he was doing fly-bys on the hangar to repair. The way i see it, if your off the ground you are fair game. IF you land with me behind you in your main I will bug off in search of greener pastures. I know everyone can't play like that, but thats what admins are for....

[Target(+)]

/\

Yeh thats a fair game senario, Its when people camp the end of runways looking for planes comming back to repair or new planes just taking off that is weak. (except on No Fly Zone)

[Nightstalker]

The only planes/helos I would not shoot are the ones taking off and the ones that are in the hanger. I have been shot on my way in .. Hell my wheels have been on the ground and got hit by a T72 once and an SA3 another time. Guys if you take off and are in the gameplay of the battlefield for any amount of time whether or not you engaged a target or not and/or your plane/helo got wounded . You put yourself in the line of fire which makes you a target until you are dead. Now If you are in the hanger there is too much room to hit other people and THEY are NOT a legal target according to the rules. SO ... IF your aerial vehicle has left the ground I say fair game.

[LF55]

I've been called out a few times in the last week for attacking arty on the red base in Bocage D2. The calls are always the same, "LF is attacking main." True, the arty is often still in the confines of the red base, but once it fires, is hiding under an eave, or I see a car racing out to the bridge I let loose. I think attacking the airfield, whether grounded planes or personnel is not ok. Is this correct or am I missing something?

[gat]

the ea rules state if arti in main is shooting out of main it's fair game. as for running back to main to get away from someone chasing you after you have already been engage there is no hiding. not even the hanger is safe if ya ask me.

i was dogfighting on el al, the froggy attacked me when i was in midst of fighting a jet, i killed the jet and saw the frog running back to main, he even landed in the hanger. i said you cant hide from me and flew my f15 straight into the hanger and slammed into the frog killing me and the frog pilot. we both had a good laugh with that 1.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=38

Any player firing from any main is a valid target. The usual examples are the MLRS or BM (multiple rocket launchers), SA-3 (surface to air missiles), and SCUD, But any player firing any weapon from a main is an acceptable target. The danger here is hitting someone else while attacking an approved target. It is left to the discernment of the administrator whether and how to punish offenders.

[Nightstalker]

.....................The danger here is hitting someone else while attacking an approved target. ......

That is why I said i dont like to fire at anyone that is in the hanger. Too many people hang out in the hanger waiting on planes and I know I get pissed when i get killed from someone baseraping camping etc. Gat you may be good enough to take out that plane and only that plane and I am pretty sure you are LOLOL but remember even if you wound someone with the explosion from the plane you kill .. Well atleast to me that is the same as camping baseraping etc because they are not a legal target. But I will be by your side all day long if someone has gotten weight off wheels and comes back to their main and you kill them and them alone and they bitch saying you camp .. Hell no you didnt you killed a legal target.

[Uranus Reamerz]

whats all this fuss about Kampin? .. actually Id like to add to this a bit
Bocage 2; shilka- is the shilka ... manned but unused a legit target?
I'm seeing jus about everyone do the swoopdee doop with their fancy helos and drop in from above "looking" for targets.
They arnt returning fire, they are looking for fire.
this maneuver is tantamount to kampin the end of the runway .. flying high over main ect ect ect
I have been killed so many times by regs and admins and havent even fired a shot.
Ive been kicked by the same admins on "tank" maps for parking outside uncap in my tank and inviting fire. Tell me what the difference is when an AH swoopes down lookin for and or "inviting" fire in the uncap main so as to return it
Nothin
2 things to note .. usually admins play blue cuz you all like the AH ... I see red hind pilots gettin kicked a lot for kampin .. yet its OK for blue AH to search red main??? I seen your hypocrisy and I know who you are!
Personally I think the shilka is game any time manned or not ... but so are mlrs too (been kicked for killin unmanned mlrs in an uncap)
Because of the flyin and the relatively close quarters I wouldnt even care if there were no rules .. I cut my teeth in BF on a no rules server

[Lev_Nougol]

So this one time, Swanny and I had a throw down because I got killed by a camper after I returned to base with an enemy aircraft I jacked on Gazala.
I completely understood his 'fair game' explanation, but I was pissed that I just so happened to be on the receiving end of a camper, instead of being pursued back into main.
So, using my head for nothing more than a hat rack, I argued it to the ground...and then apologized lol.
Ahhh, the good ole days...

[Swanny-CG]

If we're talking about Bocage, getting the Shilka from the red remote airfield and driving it to the main proper, you've gone through a stretch of open country. I would say you've left the main and come back in. The shilka can shoot you out of the cockpit without damaging the helo. It's dangerous.

Anyway, your sorry ass is probably only reloading. I don't go hunting for it but you can BET that if you kill me with the Shilka I WILL spend time finding it and when I do, the fact that you aren't firing *at that second* won't save you.

As to whether you're in the hangar or not, to me it is simple:

If you have left the main, you are fair game until you are dead. It doesn't matter where you go, into the hangar, to your grandma's house for cookies, under a cot at the Salvation army. It doesn't matter if you got in an engagement or not, or if the person that kills you previously fired at you. Once you have left the protection of the main (or fired out), you can be killed anywhere at any time.

[gat]

or you could remove the death bubble and go all out battle, then the admins dont need to worrie about main camping, it makes for less admining except for the tard tking and all around disruptive types.

but this leads to problems with air maps in that slow spwn times and few planes, any decent pilot could defeat the other teams air quite easily. lol.

imagine no place to hide.